UNHINGED EP 8: Unpacking Relationship Traumas w/ Katie Meegs

TW: divorce, emotional abuse, narcissistic abuse

Katie’s back for another BFF chat about our healing journeys in our respective relationships. Each of us has been through very different and very difficult experiences that have deeply affected how we act and think about our current relationships.

In this episode, Katie and I get together to reflect on past relationship traumas and patterns that we worked to heal from.

These topics are very emotionally charged, and each of us has put in incredible amounts of work to heal from these traumas and grow from our experiences. We speak about these now as two women who have processed and moved past these difficult times in our lives.

Join us as we discuss:

• The trauma of being a child of divorce, your partner being a child of divorce, and understanding how that affects you
• Being cheated on, the betrayal, and the emotions that come with it
• Experiencing emotional abuse and gaslighting in a relationship 
• What it's like being in a relationship with a narcissist and “never being enough”
• Awkward first dates
• Getting dumped over AIM - IYKYK

We are sharing our journeys in the hopes that it makes you feel less alone if you relate to any of this.

I hope this episode helps you take steps to healing your own traumas and identifying patterns in your relationship or your life that are not serving you.

This conversation gets a little heavy, but please know that I love you, and I am here for you always.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Lindsay: One of my true crime podcasts that I listen to started covering cases of frogging. Do you know what that is? 

[00:00:07] Katie: Nope. 

[00:00:08] Lindsay: So it's when somebody breaks into your house and you don't know they're there. And then they're just living in your attic and watching you and your family. 

[00:00:17] Katie: Excuse me? 

[00:00:19] Lindsay: Yeah, so I'm never gonna know peace in my entire life.

[00:00:23] Katie: Why is it called frogging? 

[00:00:24] Lindsay: I don't know. 

[00:00:25] Lindsay: How many times have you thought about quitting your job and starting a new life? Hey, I'm Lindsay, the girl who actually did that. And now, I'm on a mission to change the 9 to 5 narrative that dreading Monday and working for the weekend is normal and acceptable. My goal is to help you see your potential beyond your credentials, gain clarity on what it means to live life on your own terms, and build the confidence to go after your dream career.

[00:00:56] I'm here to prove to you that it's possible for you to do work you love. Make a positive impact on the world, make even more money than you're making right now, and live a deeply fulfilling life. So let's dive in.

[00:01:17] Do you feel like we need a trigger warning on today's episode? 

[00:01:21] Katie: A little bit? 

[00:01:23] Lindsay: I feel like, okay, we're gonna be talking about relationships and relationship traumas. From my perspective when I say trauma, I've never really been in a traumatic relationship. I'm just gonna be talking about patterns that I've noticed in myself in relationships because of things that have happened that have shaped how I view relationships.

[00:01:47] And that's what I mean by trauma. But I know that you have been in different situations...

[00:01:54] Katie: I have a very different definition of the word trauma. 

[00:01:56] Lindsay: Yeah, you can define what it is for you, but maybe... Give a trigger warning for whatever you think might come up that needs one. 

[00:02:05] Katie: Yeah, I think, from my perspective, if we're talking about relationship trauma, for me, that's emotional abuse, that's gaslighting, very toxic relationship, that, to me, is the trigger warning.

[00:02:18] So just know that, that can come up. I don't know if it will. Yeah. But that's my adventure. That's my journey. 

[00:02:26] Lindsay: Oh, god. When I texted you and asked if you wanted to make this episode, I wasn't even thinking about all of that. 

[00:02:35] Katie: Which is so funny because it defines me as a character, but it's completely not the direction you were planning.

[00:02:43] Lindsay: But the other thing is, I feel like, in general, I know what happened in your past relationships, but I feel like, when all of the shit happened was when we were on our friendship hiatus. 

[00:02:53] Katie: Yes, definitely. 

[00:02:55] Lindsay: Just not friends for a random few years, it's fine. So I actually don't know everything that happened.

[00:03:00] And I don't know how, I don't know what's going to come up today, you guys. I truly do not. But from my, what I was talking about when I was like, “Hey, you want to talk about our relationship traumas?” Was for me, my main relationship "trauma" is just the fact that I am a child of divorce. And how that's affected me and what I find hilarious is that for many years, I thought that my parents getting divorced had no impact on me and my relationships and dating and how I think about things.

[00:03:34] And then after going to therapy, I realized that was very much wrong. 

[00:03:39] Katie: Spoiler alert. 

[00:03:41] Lindsay: So that's what I meant. But then when I texted you, I was like wait. She has actual trauma, so, I don't know where this I don't know where this episode is going to go. 

[00:03:53] Katie: Yeah, let's get into it. 

[00:03:55] Lindsay: But okay, maybe we'll start with what what I was talking about.

[00:03:59] So I used to think that my parents being divorced had no effect on me. Because they didn't actually get divorced till I was 18. I think they just didn't want to have to deal with the whole custody thing. They waited till I was 18 to actually get divorced. But they were separated for many years before that.

[00:04:18] You probably remember, like my mom moved out. 

[00:04:19] Katie: I feel like vaguely I do, but I also feel like I don't. 

[00:04:24] Lindsay: Really? 

[00:04:24] Katie: Yeah, because the whole time you and I were friends, I feel like your parents were also sleeping in separate bedrooms. Maybe that's a little TMI, but like, 

[00:04:33] Lindsay: Oh, yeah, no, that was thing. 

[00:04:34] Katie: I don't think it was related.

[00:04:35] That was just because your dad snored. In my brain, your parents were already doing a little bit of separate coexisting. So it didn't register. 

[00:04:45] Lindsay: I forgot about that. You guys. My poor father slept on the couch for years. 

[00:04:50] Katie: No, he had his own bedroom. 

[00:04:51] Lindsay:No. 

[00:04:52] Katie:Yes. 

[00:04:53] Lindsay:He slept on the couch. 

[00:04:54] Katie:Yes. Madam. 

[00:04:55] Lindsay:In my house? 

[00:04:56] Katie:Yeah, what?

[00:04:57] There was a bedroom downstairs. 

[00:04:58] Lindsay: Oh, at one point there was. Before that, there wasn't. He was just sleeping on the couch. Until we got a 

[00:05:03] Katie: pullout couch. I think about that weirdly more often than I should. My dad snores. Okay, sidebar real quick. Kelvin snores, and it's gonna be the death of me. I'm gonna marry this man one day, and this man snores, and it's just, this is my life.

[00:05:15] I'm resigned to it. It's fine. My dad snores. My parents have been married for 30 odd years, and my mom still sleeps next to this man every night. Their solution was to get those twin beds that rotate up a little bit, so it's like a king bed. You can just be Andy, you're snoring, and then, weeee, he just elevates a little, and then he doesn't snore anymore, and then he'll elevate him, he'll de-elevate, what's the word, deescalate.

[00:05:40] Yeah, whatever. But I always think about that because I'm like, my mom needs her own bedroom. The woman needs, it's been 30 years, she's earned it. That's the solution. 

[00:05:49] Lindsay: I'm so sorry. I all the time think about how grateful I am that Brendan doesn't snore, because I don't know what I would do. 

[00:05:55] Katie: There's no position that he doesn't snore.

[00:05:58] Like usually if you rotate a person and they're like on their side, it's fine. It's not fine. 

[00:06:00] Lindsay: Oh no. 

[00:06:01] Katie: It's okay. I love him. We're keeping him. 

[00:06:04] Lindsay: That sucks so much. 

[00:06:06] Katie: But that's his, that's his beige flag. He snores. 

[00:06:09] Lindsay: Snores in any position. 

[00:06:13] Katie: Cool. Anyway. We can just like block that out. 

[00:06:17] Lindsay: Hopefully Kelvin and Brendan don't listen to this episode.

[00:06:20]  Katie:  If he does, he does. Shit, sorry. 

[00:06:23] Lindsay: Anyway, yeah, no, they were not sleeping in the same bed for... I have some memories when I was younger of them sleeping in the same bed, but mostly my dad was on the couch snoring, and we could all hear him because he was just in the living room. So I was like, this is not ideal, but it's fine.

[00:06:40] Katie: But to me, that was completely unrelated. So to answer your question, I don't remember any of that. 

[00:06:44] Lindsay: I don't know if it was entirely unrelated. I'm sure if they actually liked each other, my mom would have gotten over it, but maybe not. Cause my mom is a very sensitive sleep, she'll hear a chipmunk outside and be like "I can't sleep." She's ridiculous. 

[00:07:00] Katie: Those fuckers are loud. 

[00:07:03] Lindsay: So anyway, yeah, no, they… so I thought because they got divorced when I was grown up, an adult... I don't think you should be classified as an adult when you're 18, but that's a different podcast for another day. I was like, that didn't really affect me.

[00:07:20] But the thing is. I don't… because I didn't realize it until I'm like in a conversation with someone whose parents are still in love with each other. And then I realized “oh, that's not normal.” I don't have any memories of my parents being affectionate, like hugging, kissing. Zero. I don't have a single one.

[00:07:43] I don't have any memories of them really ever being happy together. They wouldn't yell at each other. T hey, they wouldn't fight. They would just bicker all the time. 

[00:07:54] Katie: Coexist. 

[00:07:55] Lindsay: And so, but that was just how I grew up. I don't- I don't know. And then sometimes we'll be with Brendan's friends and their parents are, or your parents.

[00:08:08] And I'm just, like, "What's it like to have parents that like each other? What a concept."

[00:08:16] Katie: Oof. 

[00:08:18]Lindsay: Yeah, but anyway, when I realized... how I realized that it actually does affect me very much. I think I realized this when I was in therapy, like when I was going to therapy, but the thing is, I have this deeply rooted fear of ending up with the wrong person. Ending up in a relationship and that is gonna end in divorce, basically.

[00:08:42] And so, my brain, whenever I'm, like, dating someone, is constantly looking for red flags because it wants me to see the red flags and get out before we get married, right? 

[00:08:55] Katie: So are you manufacturing red flags?

[00:08:58] Lindsay: Yes! So, because... 

[00:09:01] Katie: Okay, tell me everything? 

[00:09:02] Lindsay:Your brain is gonna, whatever you're focused on, that's what you're gonna see, right?

[00:09:06] It's confirmation bias. I'm constantly looking for red flags, so then every little thing becomes a red flag. Or things that don't even exist become a red flag. I feel like I've talked to you about this before. 

[00:09:18] Katie: I think so. 

[00:09:19]Lindsay: I'll just be projecting shit onto Brendan or onto our relationship that literally doesn't even exist.

[00:09:26] I'll see a TikTok of someone complaining about her husband not doing something, and then I'll be like, does Brendan do that? 

[00:09:34] Katie: Meanwhile, Brendan is the exact opposite. He does the most. 

[00:09:38] Lindsay: No, literally. Because I kept seeing TikToks of wives being like, they're Husband doesn't contribute enough to the household.

[00:09:46] Doing household chores and stuff. And then I would project that onto Brendan and then be like, he's not doing enough. But then when I actually like looked at the situation, I was like, this man does more shit than I do. He comes home from work, and he does all the dishes and he doesn't ever complain about it.

[00:10:04] And then he does the yard work and he's cleaner than I am. He'll get up on a Saturday morning, clean our whole kitchen, vacuum, all three floors of our house. And I'm sitting here and my brain is trying to convince me that he doesn't do enough around the house. If anything, I'm the one that doesn't do enough around the house.

[00:10:24] Katie: Sounds like it, I mean, I'm kidding.. 

[00:10:26] Lindsay: And it, but... until, before I realized that that's what my brain was doing, I just thought that that was reality. 

[00:10:34] Katie: Did you honestly believe he wasn't doing enough? Or did you just... 

[00:10:38] Lindsay: No, that's just an example, but I would... Okay, here's, here's the other thing. I don't even know how to put this into words, but the way...

[00:10:49] I have this deep fear of ending up with the wrong person. And the way that I felt like I knew I was with the right person was just... you know, that feeling of like infatuation that you have when you first start dating someone? 

[00:11:00] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:11:01] Lindsay: And so I was like, that is love. That's how I know I'm with the right person.

[00:11:06] But obviously that shit never lasts, right? Or it comes and goes. I still feel that way about Brendan often but not 100% of the time. And so whenever that would not be there, my, I would like malfunction. 

[00:11:20] Katie: It's over. 

[00:11:20] Lindsay: Yeah. It's not my person. 

[00:11:23] Yeah. Because I don't feel that way anymore, right? So it's like if that spark, whatever you want to call it isn't there. My brain starts fucking spiraling. 

[00:11:31] Katie: Oh, God, that's such a good one. 

[00:11:32] Lindsay:  I've done this in every like, this is why most of my relationships have ended. That's the reason 

[00:11:38] Katie: because you didn't feel.. Like the honeymoon phase was over kind of thing, or…? 

[00:11:43] Lindsay: That's essentially why Brendan and I broke up in the first place. Because I... 

[00:11:47] Katie: I love this. 

[00:11:49] Lindsay: Literally just started spiraling, and I was like, I don't know if you're my person, because I don't feel this way all the time. And so then whenever that feeling was gone, I would just, my brain would start looking for all the red flags, and then I would spiral, and then it would get worse, and yeah.

[00:12:06] That's the pattern that kept happening in all my relationships. So... I was literally creating red flags that didn't exist because my brain was trying to protect me from getting in the wrong relationship and for some reason I equated being with the right person with just that honeymoon phase feeling. 

[00:12:25] And looking back, I'm like bitch you were probably just ovulating. No one, no one ever explained to me that you feel differently about your partner at different parts points in your cycle. And it's wild. Weird. That's a whole topic for another podcast. 

[00:12:46] Katie: That is another entirely separate day. 

[00:12:48] Lindsay: But truly, because sometimes I would just not be there and I'm like nothing even happened. What's going on? You probably were ovulating and now you're not. That's probably all that happened. No one ever explained that to me. So I just thought I was crazy from the ages of 15 to 24. I just thought I was incapable of having a long term relationship. 

[00:13:10] Katie: Joke's on you. It's just a cycle. 

[00:13:12] Lindsay: Yeah, so… 

[00:13:15] Katie: No, but you made a good point with the patterns in relationships, because for a long time, so Kelvin and I have been together for about a little over three years now.

[00:13:24] And for a long time in the beginning of our relationship, if we would have a disagreement or a fight, I was convinced he was done. He was out, it was over and I also thought that that meant he was the wrong person for me, because we were having a disagreement. And it's not so much that I thought that we can't disagree on things, it's just that in my past relationships, if we disagreed, it was gonna turn into a massive fucking blowout. It was gonna be a huge fight. Even if my feelings were hurt and I said something to say like, "hey, you know, Lindsay, you really hurt my feelings.

[00:13:59] I didn't like the way you did that." It was my fault. Yeah, and I was the one apologizing for my own feelings being hurt. And I have moments where my friends have come back to me later and said, “Katie, I watched you apologize for things that you did not do.” And it's... yeah, Kelvin and I have disagreements all the time. But he's so level headed and he's just like, “hey, you know what…” and we talk about things and it's just very to the point and it's so healthy, but when you don't know what that shit is like it blows your fucking mind. 

[00:14:28] Lindsay: That's what… I think about this all the time, because Brendan's parents are also divorced, and they had even a messier divorce than my parents did.

[00:14:37] I mean, my parents wasn't messy at all, and they still are very... everyone who meets my parents, they're like, they're divorced? Because they're fine. I mean, you've probably seen them, maybe not recently, because my mom moved, but they're completely fine when they're together. His parents are not.

[00:14:52] Their divorce was messy. And so, I'm always like, how did we create such a healthy relationship when both of us just have the worst examples to go off of? It makes no sense. And I think there's even a statistic of if your parents are divorced, you have a higher chance of getting divorced.

[00:15:12] It's like, the odds are not in our favor. 

[00:15:16] Katie: No, but I feel like we shouldn't view it that way. 

[00:15:17] Lindsay: And yet, somehow we have such a healthy relationship and healthy communication. And literally every time, I want to say every time we argue, but we don't even that often. Because we both... even if we're really, and this is a pattern that honestly I have to work on sometimes. But Brendan is helping me heal it because somehow he also healed it and I don't know how, but bless this man, because he'll be like... You know when you're just like annoyed or you're having a shitty day and you take it out on your partner because they're just there they didn't actually do anything, but you're just annoyed.

[00:15:52] So then you just get annoyed at them. He won't, he'll check himself, and then if I said something that bothered him, he'll just be like, “Hey…” and calmly express that, and we just can so calmly express our feelings to each other, and it's just a five minute conversation and then it's resolved. 

[00:16:13] Katie: No, literally that's exactly how Kelvin is too. He just like tells me what hurt his feelings. 

[00:16:16] Lindsay: I don't understand how we got here. 

[00:16:19] Katie: I am very much the opposite. I'm in a funk, I'm in a mood, if I have a bad day, that shit comes home with me and I've learned. And so a lot of it doesn't come home with me anymore. He knows, if I'm tired, we talk about it immediately, almost immediately, right?

[00:16:32] He registers my energy, and he's just like, are you tired? Are you upset? What's going on? And we talk about it. But yeah, it's the same thing. I don't... How? Is it because they function on a 24 hour cycle and they can simply just check it at the door and it's gone. It's today's problem. It's not coming with me tomorrow. Whereas we will take that with us? 

[00:16:52] Lindsay: But the thing is, he hasn't always been like that. And it's so weird also to be in a relationship with someone who you were in a relationship with when you were 18 and not mature. The way we communicated back then is not... if we had this type of communication that back then I don't think we ever would have broken up because I would have been able to express my feelings in a way that wasn't breaking up with him.

[00:17:17] Katie: You know what? That's valid. That's fair. 

[00:17:19] Lindsay: I don't know how we... it just kind of we both evolved. I don't know. We both grew. We both I think just had maybe because we both had such shitty examples of what we don't want. 

[00:17:33] Katie: Well, yeah, that's what I was thinking too, is you have learned exactly what you don't want to take with you in a relationship.

[00:17:39] Lindsay: Yeah, and it's crazy that that should be the bare minimum, but for so many people, they don't ever see their parents happy, and I- I literally can't grasp, I can't wrap my head around the idea of growing up with parents that love each other, which sounds so sad. 

[00:18:00] Katie: It sounds wildly fucked up, but in the same respect, I can't imagine my parents not being like that. Because they are each other's best fucking friend. They annoy the shit out of each other, but they do it, and then immediately turn around and are giggling at each other. I have never known. I don't know. They're just, they've literally known each other for their entire lives at this point. I mean, it's been 40 fucking years.

[00:18:25] Lindsay: I know. That's crazy. I just like, I feel like my whole childhood growing up, it just felt like everyone in our household was constantly walking on eggshells with each other and not wanting to get on each other's nerves. And I hated that feeling. And I, yeah, I think Brennan and I just both experience what we don't want, and that's why, like, both of us value healthy communication so much, I guess? That we're, we just, broke the patterns, because one thing about my family is they don't know how to communicate shit.

[00:19:02] Katie: It's not funny, but... 

[00:19:04] Lindsay: My family is terrible at communicating with each other. And it's really hard for me sometimes. I most of the time can't communicate my feelings without crying still. 

[00:19:16] Katie: That's fair. 

[00:19:17] Lindsay:Sometimes you just got to cry and express yourself anyway. 

[00:19:19] Katie: Yeah, sometimes you just got to let that out. A good cry is a good cry. 

[00:19:23] Lindsay: Sometimes it's just stupid shit. I'm like, I don't even know why I'm crying right now. And I'm just like, I know I'm gonna cry. And this is dumb, but I just need to say this. 

[00:19:33] Katie: Relate. 

[00:19:35] Lindsay: Oh, man, it's so that Yeah, that shit fucks me up to think about. 

[00:19:41] Katie: Yeah, but I'm just thinking about you and Brendan having kids and distinctly not wanting or distinctly wanting to create the exact opposite childhood that you guys had. Not that either one of you had a bad childhood, but my point is of all that walking on eggshells, or the uncomfortable disagreeing parents, or I don't know. You and Brendan are each other's best friends, for sure. That's what I picture, I picture you two like my parents.

[00:20:09] If that's any consolation. I mean, I don't know the ins and outs of your relationship, and I don't know the ins and outs of my parents relationship, but they've been through some shit together. You guys will go through some shit together, and I feel like... 

[00:20:20] Lindsay: I'm not worried about it. I mean, I wouldn't be engaged to him if I was.

[00:20:24] Katie: Of course not. 

[00:20:26] Lindsay: But I constantly am like, how did we get here? How did we create such a healthy relationship from these shitty examples that we had? And it's wild, but I also remember in ... so we started... we reconnected in 2019. Officially got back together in spring of 2020, but I was having such a crisis leading up because we were talking. He came to visit me. This was when I was living in North Carolina. 

[00:20:59] Katie: Oh, yeah. 

[00:21:00] Lindsay:He came to visit me for New Year's of 2020. And then we didn't make it official, but it was basically the next time we see each other in person, we're going to make it official. We both just kind of knew that. 

[00:21:13] Katie: Jokes on you, and then the pandemic happened. 

[00:21:14] Lindsay: No, literally, I was, I was supposed to fly up here and visit him. 

[00:21:18] Katie: I forgot about that, I'm sorry. 

[00:21:19] Lindsay: In March, the week after everything was shut down, so then I had to cancel my flight. And I didn't end up going, so I didn't end up seeing him until May, but for those couple months, I was acting so fucking weird, and I was just fully spiraling. This was when I was actually working with a life coach, so I was talking to her about it, and I was like, I don't know why I have so much anxiety. I don't feel like myself. I don't know what's going on, and I just realized that I was so fucking triggered because I knew that I was going to get back together with him and it was just triggering all of that fear again in me.

[00:21:59] And I think because I knew that I was going to marry this man. That's how I knew that he was the one because no one has ever, I've never been that fucking triggered by anyone. You know what I mean? 

[00:22:11] Katie: I do. 

[00:22:12] Lindsay: It's like, because my body knew my body and my brain knew I'm going to most likely marry this man.

[00:22:20] It was like, Red alert. 

[00:22:22] Katie: The core of your being was like, "help??" 

[00:22:24] Lindsay: We need to make sure... This is not safe. It was like all of those red, it was on hyper alert for all the red flags. Cause what if he's not the one, you need to find out before you get married to him so that you don't end up in the same situation as your parents.

[00:22:40] And I was literally, I also remember thinking, cause this was when I was working with my life coach. And I remember talking to her about... I feel like before I can be in a committed relationship with someone, I still have so much healing and growth and personal development to do and I didn't feel like I could be in a relationship until I was fully developed as a human, but you're never going to get there.

[00:23:02] Right? And I, I just remember thinking that and I don't know why I thought that I had to be single to grow as a person because there's so much growth that has happened inside of being in a relationship. More than I could have possibly done on my own because there's all this shit that I never would have healed because it never would have come up if I was single.

[00:23:23] Yep. So I just look back at myself from 2020 and I'm like, you dumb bitch. You did not know shit. 

[00:23:32] Katie: There's shit you can't even like… you couldn't even try to develop and like be better. 

[00:23:38] Lindsay: Yeah, your partner will trigger you more than anyone else. But that's a good thing because then you can heal all the shit that they're bringing up in you.

[00:23:46] Katie: Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 

[00:23:50] Lindsay: Oh, man. Yeah. So that's my relationship traumas. Not very traumatic, but… 

[00:23:58] Katie: Still valid, still perfectly valid being a child of divorce is traumatic. A lot of my friends are children of divorce. 

[00:24:07] Lindsay: And it's crazy that I just I didn't think that it affected me. 

[00:24:11] Katie: No, I mean, you kind of don't think about how that shit affects you in real time.

[00:24:18] I mean, while it's happening, you don't think about 20 years down the road this is gonna blow my fucking mind. No, I mean, I still carry trauma with me. I've been in a healthy, loving relationship for three years, and I still have moments where I'm like, “Oh, my God, what the fuck?” And it's not even necessarily anything that Kelvin does.

[00:24:40] It's just traumas that come up in my own brain that I'm like, is this safe? And I have to work through that because it wasn't at one point.

[00:24:53] It's fucked. I don't know how else to put it other than 

[00:24:59] Lindsay: Well, what, like what, what's some of the shit that comes up for you now?

[00:25:03] Katie: Well, most recently it's a, well, that's not true. I feel like I haven't had a lot of moments recently, where I'm freaking out about things, but when we first got together, there were moments of. So, in my past relationship, I was cheated on, and I always thought that I was the type of person that, if I'm cheated on, I'll leave, and I didn't. And I chose to, we chose to take some time apart, he decided that he did want to be with me.

[00:25:34] We decided that we were going to work it out because I was fully like, you need to work on your shit, man. You need to get… figure your shit out. Either you want to be with me or you don't. And he decided he did. So we decided to try moving past it. And we dated for three years. And then… I think that was like a year and a half in that he cheated.

[00:25:53] And we continued to date for another year and a half. And in that remaining year and a half, it turns out he cheated on me a whole bunch more. And I didn't know at the time, but I think it's been seven years since we have parted ways, and we don't speak anymore, and that's for the best, but when Kelvin and I got together, I would have moments of like, he would be out with his friends, and I knew exactly where he was because his friends were my friends, like we all went to college together.

[00:26:21] But there would still be this tiny part of me that's like, can you trust him? Do you know where he is right now? Are you sure he's with his friends? ?Are you sure he's not doing something bad? And it's me gaslighting myself, but. 

[00:26:36] When I first, there was one moment where I thought that he was still cheating on me, and I asked him about it, I questioned him about it, and I remember it so distinctly, because he was, he made me feel like I was crazy.

[00:26:48] He made me feel like I was making things up, like I was paranoid, like... Like I was, I was crazy and that's what gaslighting is. But yeah, you do it to yourself too. You get into this moment. There are these... because you don't want to believe it. You don't want to think the person that you love is disrespecting you and, and going to break your heart.

[00:27:07] You don't want to believe any of that. So you convince yourself it's not happening or you look the other way because you want to be with that person because you love that person and jokes on me. But it was a lot of that at first and there was never any, there's nothing about Kelvin that ever gave me pause like, he's gonna cheat on me, right?

[00:27:29] There was nothing but because it had happened in my past. It's like, well, can you trust him? Yeah. So a lot of it was trust issues and it was trust in myself. Can I handle that if he does? Yes, but 19 year old, 20 year old me couldn't. 10 years ago! Ugh. The me from 10 years ago has seen some shit.

[00:27:49] And the me now had to go through all that shit to know that she could handle it. 

[00:27:56] Lindsay: Ugh. 

[00:27:56] Katie: It's fucked. It's fucked. 

[00:27:58] Lindsay:Wait, was Kelvin the first relationship you had since? 

[00:28:01] Katie: No, I've dated other people. They were all weird. I mean, okay, weird is a relative term, but I did a lot of- 

[00:28:11] Lindsay: Please elaborate.

[00:28:13] Katie: I did a lot of reflecting on all of the past relationships that I've had up to this point. And I think I've dated like, I don't know, six-ish people in that time. If we're gonna put a hard number on it. I won't, I didn't date any of them for more than like six months at a time before that first relationship, which was about three years long.

[00:28:30] Kelvin is the longest relationship I've had now, up to the… all of them, all of them, and very proud of that. But they were… you know, when you start dating somebody and you kind of know it's not going to last, but you like the person, you're going to, yeah, yeah. So that's what was happening with all of my relationships.

[00:28:51] Like I was convincing myself that I wanted to be with these people because I thought that I could see a future with them. But really, there was never any fucking shot of a future. There was 0 percent chance that that was going to work. And there was always something that was like a hard line deal breaker for me that I was like, you know what, it'll be fine.

[00:29:08] We'll cross that bridge later. It doesn't matter because I don't, the core of my being doesn't see myself with these people. But like, there was always like, Weird shit that was like skeletons in the closet type of shit that maybe so I'll give you an example: one of the guys I dated wanted to… and this is not like a dig at any of these things, but this is just like I don't relate to that lifestyle. I have no desire for that to be my lifestyle. One of the guys I dated wanted to move up north and live off the grid and like homestead and that's fine But that was never gonna be my life.

[00:29:39] Yeah, like that was never any shot of that being my future. I dated a vegan. That's a distinct lifestyle choice. There's nothing wrong with it, but I am not a vegan and he would make me feel bad about not being a vegan. I remember several instances where he would just make passive aggressive comments about the things that I was eating, and it wasn't all the time, but I'm not, I'm not living with that.

[00:30:00] I'm not gonna spend the next 70 odd years of my life. It was things like that. Like, just significant deal breaker things that I was like, this is fine. 

[00:30:08] Lindsay:Yeah. 

[00:30:10] It's not fine. It's not fine. 24 year old me, it's not fine. 

[00:30:16] Lindsay:Yeah. 

[00:30:17] Katie: But the first relationship so the most traumatic one was my first real serious relationship and we yeah, yes. We dated other… I've dated in high school, but he that one was my first significant… 

[00:30:31] Lindsay:So you'renot talking about any of the people you did it in high school.

[00:30:33] Katie: No 

[00:30:34] Lindsay: for a second I was like…

[00:30:35] Katie: No, no, no. No, this was this most I guess traumatic relationship was post high school. I was a freshman in college. Yeah, Which is when I think we weren't friends. Yeah. Right? That was like our hiatus. 

[00:30:48] Lindsay: Yeah, it was. Yeah. 

[00:30:49] Katie: So.. That's what I was doing.

[00:30:51] Lindsay: I don't remember the cause of that. Doesn't matter.

[00:30:54] Katie: I don't either actually. I think we just like parted ways for a bit. Because I did that with Kaitlyn too. And it worked out fine. You know what? Maybe we just needed a break from each other. We just, what is it, Rachel and Ross? Maybe we should take a break. We did. And now, we're thriving.

[00:31:08] Lindsay: But yeah, it was, it, because I don't remember. I don't know that I ever met, I know who the person is, but I don't think I ever met him because we, weren't friends for that time. 

[00:31:18] Katie: No, no, I think, so here's the other thing too, is I do a lot of reflecting about that relationship sometimes, because there'll be moments where I'm like, there are so many red flags. Ten years later, there are so many red flags that I just did not see, or chose not to see because I was wearing rose colored glasses. Because I met this guy, and I really thought that it was love at first sight.

[00:31:40] He was friends, he worked with some of my friends, and so he's pre-vetted, right? He works with my friends, he's friends with my friends, if I value these people's company, and they value his company, he must be okay, you know? And so we would hang out and then, I'm coming to realize that in the longevity of our relationship, he wormed his way into my circle of friends because he didn't have any friends.

[00:32:07] Lindsay: Hmm. 

[00:32:08] Katie: There's a reason for that. I mean, it is what it is, but, my friends became his friends, so all the people that I was friends with in high school, but all of these people that I'm super close with that are my circle of friends post high school into college. He wormed his way inside of and started to get close with and started to be friends with and made all of those people like him and why wouldn't they, right?

[00:32:31] He's my boyfriend. They're my friends. They want to, you want to like the person that your friends are dating. You want to do that, even if you don't or there's things, whatever. But then, but after he worms his way in, you kind of feel like if something goes wrong in our relationship, he's friends with my friends.

[00:32:49] I now can't go to those friends and vent because they're friends with him. And it's not that I really needed to vent. I could have vented to my girlfriends anytime. That was never the issue. But it's also I don't want to present these things as issues because I know deep down that they're… I shouldn't have, these aren't issues that you should have in a relationship.

[00:33:07] You shouldn't have to fear that somebody's lying to you. You shouldn't have to fear that you're being cheated on. You shouldn't have to feel like you're crazy because you talk about your feelings. You shouldn't be apologizing when your feelings are hurt. And I was too… you're embarrassed. You don't want to say any of these things to even your best friends.

[00:33:25] There's a lot of the… I mean, you say you didn't know a lot of what goes on in that relationship, but not a lot of people do. I mean, there's very few people who saw the intimate side of that massive blowout because he turned to them, too. And even then he doesn't speak to these people anymore.

[00:33:42] He doesn't speak to any of the people that are my friends, because they were my friends. They were my friends. I'm being territorial about it a little bit, or I sound like I'm being territorial about it, but these are relationships that I had cultivated for years that he just became a part of because he was my peripheral.

[00:33:59] You are my friend. If Kelvin and I break up, you are still my friend. Kelvin is going to the wind. You know what I mean? Eh. It's a lot. Being in a toxic relationship when you don't know you're in a toxic relationship is fucked. 

[00:34:15] Lindsay: How did you like realize that you were in one? 

[00:34:18] Katie: I mean, so after he cheated on me…That kind of just breaks you as a person.

[00:34:25] I mean, your relationship will never be the same. It won't even if you repair it, even if you do all the things to try there's still… there was always a part of me that was like, I can't trust him. You can't get that trust back. You can't once it's gone. You can glue the vase back together, but there's still cracks in the vase.

[00:34:42] So I think that was like my freshman year of college. I think my sophomore year because I had transferred schools. I was commuting and there would be points when I was just unhappy and I knew that I was unhappy. And I would be driving to school and I would just think about, all right, so what happens if I break up with him?

[00:35:03] What happens if we part ways? Because he lived at my house. He lived with my family. He was sleeping in my bed every night. My mom was doing his laundry, he was part of my family. Yeah. 

[00:35:16] Lindsay: When you weren't there? 

[00:35:18] Katie: Yeah, because he lived in Cumberland. I mean, he would leave and go to his parents house.

[00:35:22]But whenever I was home, he was at my house. He was essentially like a seventh family member. And because things were so shitty, I would like, All right, well, what's the solution? It's to get out of this situation. But you have to be brave enough to pull the trigger and I was not for a really long time.

[00:35:42] I mean I fantasized about breaking up with him for probably three or four months and simply did not have the power to do it. And I think maybe that was my junior year because I lived with Sam. We had a house together and that's when we broke up. It was that year. And I didn't even have the courage to break up with him.

[00:35:59] He finally got... we had a party and we all got drunk and he finally was like, “You know what? I think we should break up.” He had to be the one to say this is over because I couldn't do it. I was still hanging on. I was still sucked into that relationship, even though I knew I shouldn't be. There was no fiber of my being that knew that that was going to work.

[00:36:20] And I still couldn't. You're like an addict. I mean, really, truly, you're like an addict. You can't put the drug down. It's so overpowering, because also, for three years of my life, that's all I knew. That was my first significant relationship, and despite what I said about my parents and having this really beautiful, healthy, friendship relationship, that's what I thought I had, and when things were really good, that's exactly what it was like.

[00:36:45] He was my best friend. We were giggling, and we were having the best time, but when things were bad, They were really fucking bad. They were really fucking bad. And I just didn't talk about it to anybody, because, I mean, I couldn't even talk about it with siblings. They know about it now, but it's… it's a trauma that you, you don't want to admit to having.

[00:37:09] It's like admitting you need help. 

[00:37:11] Lindsay: Yeah. 

[00:37:12] Katie: And you can't. It's fucked. 

[00:37:14] Lindsay: Mm. God. That's like so heavy. 

[00:37:19] Katie: It is. It's very heavy. It's very heavy. And it's a weight that I carried with me for a really long time. And don't get me wrong  the entire time we were in a relationship, or maybe soon thereafter, The first incident like I was in therapy for all of this and I experienced panic attacks and anxiety attacks and I was medicated for anxiety because I couldn't handle my own anxiety because I was making myself feel I was crazy.

[00:37:48] It became a medical condition. I remember emailing my therapist one day explaining how. I started to feel like I couldn't breathe and it was a weekend, we were at school and I needed to drive home. It was like 3 a. m. And I was like, I need to be in my own bed. I need to be in my parents house. I need to be somewhere I know it's safe. And I, he drove me home because I literally couldn't be at school because I was having a panic attack because I couldn't trust him because the person he cheated on me with was also going to the same school that I was. And that school is really fucking big, but I knew that I just didn't feel safe at that school for no reason other than these two people that disrespected me as a person and broke my trust in my boyfriend.

[00:38:32] These two people exist in the same place. I do. I need to leave. I need to get out. Yeah. And I remember explaining this to her because I didn't know at the time that it was a panic attack. I just was like, what the fuck is happening to me? And she emailed I emailed her. That was a Saturday. I think she emailed me back on Sunday was like, “Katie, it sounds like you had a panic attack.

[00:38:50] Let's talk about it.” And I was like, “yo, what the fuck?” 

[00:38:53] Lindsay: Yeah, that's not normal. 

[00:38:55] Katie: No, no, it's not normal. No person that you should date should ever make you feel like that ever even on your worst days, even in your worst fights. That is not an experience. I have ever had with any other man 

[00:39:09] Lindsay: I feel like I know we gave, like, a trigger warning, but I kind of hope this helps someone.

[00:39:14] I feel like maybe 

[00:39:16] Katie: Yeah, I'm hoping that somebody even… I'm really sorry if you relate to this. I'm really deeply sorry that you relate to this… but I also hope that it helps somebody recognize that. Because I'm talking to my past self here, too. If I had heard a podcast like this, if I had heard that there is people out there that feel this way that have been through this shit, maybe I would have left sooner.

[00:39:40] Lindsay: Even just knowing that, like. 

[00:39:41] Katie: But to not feel alone is huge. 

[00:39:43] Lindsay: To not feel alone and knowing that it can get better. And you can have that healthy relationship. 

[00:39:48] Katie: It can get a lot better. 

[00:39:51] Lindsay: Oh, man. That was a lot. And I'm sure there's more. 

[00:39:55] Katie: We do not have to continue that, but that's the gist. Oh, God. Fuck. Yeah, so we parted ways.

[00:40:04] And I did. So we tried to be friends. Mm. But. He was a huge part of my life for so long, I wanted to keep him in my life for a little while because I thought, alright, if we're not going to make it as lovers, let's be friends kind of thing. And that was never going to work. The problem with the narcissistic abuse is that there's never going to be anything that you can do to be enough for this person. You're always going to be doing something wrong, and even though I tried to be his friend… there would be moments where… I remember he had, like, a Halloween party or a Thanksgiving party, and his friends and family were over, and I was leaving because I was going to go on a date, and I remember that he had an absolute meltdown about it, and I left anyway.

[00:40:51] At this point, we were kind of on the gonna be on the outs as friends. We were definitely a segway in the end of our relationship for good. But I remember saying “alright I'm leaving now” and hug goodbye, whatever and he was like oh where are you going. Had to know had to know, was relentless and I said “I've got a date, I'm going to meet somebody for drinks.”

[00:41:13] It's the constant questions of who are you going with? And I was it's, it doesn't matter who it is and so I left. But later on, because our friends were there at this party, later on, I heard all these things about how he was saying that. I was a really shitty friend, that I ditched him for, it's just it's weird, right?

[00:41:30] It's weird, but, so I, we can be done with this in a minute, but there's another moment that I have in my brain where I met some of his friends, At the bar this is months later. This is before the Halloween incident, but this is like after we broke up I met his friends at the bar. We were all going to hang out because some it was with Sam and so mutual friends.

[00:41:51] And then it was some of his friends. And I remember meeting his friends and they were like, wow, you're nothing like he described. And I was like, what do you mean? And I was like, what? What do you mean? How did he describe me? And it turns out that he was telling everyone that I was, like, a really nasty person, that I was really mean, that I was a huge bitch, that I was kind of just stuck up and self centered and all these it was really, he was really shit talking me.

[00:42:16] And I walked in and I'm this bubbly human that's like, “Hi everybody, how are you? Like, nice to meet you.” 

[00:42:16] Lindsay: Yeah, the opposite of that.

[00:42:16] Katie: Yeah, and... They were… it was like whiplash. You could see that they were like, holy shit, he fucking shit talked this, cute little girl. I don't know, it was just like, moments like that. He always had to be the one that came out on top, that always looked the best, and if it meant stepping on me, if it meant stabbing me in the back, if it meant, like, that's just, even though I was his girlfriend, too.

[00:42:50] Lindsay: I hate all of this for you so much.

[00:42:51] Katie: I do too. I do too. But it's part of my story. And like I said, now I'm in like the happiest, most loving relationship I have ever experienced in my life. 

[00:43:03] Lindsay: It's all good, you guys. It worked out. 

[00:43:06] Katie: Yeah, you have, I mean, I had to go through some deep shit, but, and I wouldn't recommend it, necessarily, but if you're gonna, if you, if you do have to end up going through some of that shit, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

[00:43:19] I promise. 

[00:43:20] Lindsay: On a lighter note, I don't even know where to go from that. 

[00:43:24] Katie: Bet you weren't expecting that.

[00:43:26] Lindsay: I don't know. Do we have any funny relate? Did you ever go on like a date that was ridiculous? A worst first date situation. 

[00:43:33] Katie: Ooh, okay, let me think, let me think. 

[00:43:36] Lindsay: Wait, can we talk about something else?

[00:43:39] Katie: Yes? 

[00:43:41] Lindsay: Oh god, I won't name any names, but... Do you remember that person who I dated? Yes. Do you already know who I'm talking about?

[00:43:48] Katie: Super yes! Let's go! I can think of exactly three people. Because that's the number that it is. And I know who you're gonna say.

[00:43:56] Lindsay: Yeah, no. So... God, I think about this. I don't think about it all the time.

[00:44:02] But looking back, I'm like, how did I not as for someone whose brain is constantly looking for red flags? I'm like, how did I not fucking see this one? 

[00:44:11] Katie:I love it already. 

[00:44:11] Lindsay: We… do… you probably know exactly what I'm going to say or no, 

[00:44:11] Katie: I don't know if… 

[00:44:16] Lindsay: There was a day when you were at my house, and we were all supposed to go out.

[00:44:23] Katie: I know exactly what you're going to say. 

[00:44:24] Lindsay:You remember now, right? I was like, wait, was I not you? 

[00:44:26] Katie:Yeah no, I was there for that. 

[00:44:27] Lindsay:We were all supposed to go out and we were like hanging out in my basement pre gaming or something. And the person I was dating at the time was just being an absolute dick for no reason to all of my friends.

[00:44:38] And I was like????? 

[00:44:38] Katie: Yup. I remember. 

[00:44:41] Lindsay: What is happening? And then we were supposed to go out, we were supposed to go out for me, because I think I had just like taken my first CPA exam or something. 

[00:44:48] Katie:Yeah, you had just passed, I think 

[00:44:50] Lindsay:  It was supposed to be celebrating me with my friends, hanging out. But he was so rude to you guys for literally no reason that you didn't come out and I don't blame you, but you guys just went home and I was like, how, what the fuck?

[00:45:03] So then we're out with his friends and he's still being, he's being a dick to me now. 

[00:45:09] Katie: Yeah, because I remember this night because I was going to come get you. 

[00:45:13] Lindsay: Yeah, because I was texting, I think I was texting Tori, right? 

[00:45:18] Katie: because the three of us left 

[00:45:20] Lindsay: And I was like, I don't even want to be here. We like went out we were like bar hopping in Providence or something.

[00:45:25] And I don't even remember what I don't remember what he was saying to me. But he was being rude to the point where his friends were like what? Like, why, why are you being so rude? And I literally texted her and I was like, “Can you come get me?” But then we ended up like leaving right after that. So I was like, nevermind.

[00:45:43] It's fine. 

[00:45:43] Katie: No, we were like this close to, yeah. 

[00:45:46] Lindsay: And then we got back to my house. We were still with one of his friends, because I think we all drove there together or something. And he just went to bed. And then I'm just there with his friend. And I'm like, I don't know, I don't know what to say. 

[00:45:58] Katie: What a night. Did his buddy say anything? 

[00:45:59] Lindsay: Yeah, I think he was like, sorry, I don't know why he's acting so weird whatever. But I was like, I then had to sleep in the same bed as him, he was sleeping over my house. It was a nightmare. And then. That's not even the worst part. The worst part was the next day when I was like, why are you acting so fucking weird?

[00:46:20] And the reason was because he found out that his, whatever, if they do, they do. He found out that his best friend, who was about to get married, had just told him that he cheated on his fiancé. And so he... 

[00:46:40] Katie: I'm sorry, he found out that his best friend cheated on his fiance. 

[00:46:46] Lindsay: Yes. 

[00:46:47]Katie: And that, so he went balls to the wall crazy.

[00:46:49]Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:46:51] Katie: Disrespecting his own girlfriend. 

[00:46:53] Lindsay:Correct. 

[00:46:54] Katie: Do better., what?! 

[00:46:55] Lindsay: And he was like, that's why I was acting so weird. I just didn't know how to take that news. And like, I was like, 

[00:47:00] Katie: So you're mad at your friends so you're taking it out on people you don't even know? 

[00:47:04] Lindsay: He doesn't know how to process that information.

[00:47:06] And so that was his explanation for why he was acting so fucking weird. 

[00:47:11] Katie: Bye. What the fuck? See, but that's the type of shit that, that it would be those kinds of things that would happen all the time. There's always a reason that. My former partner was being a lunatic.

[00:47:22] Lindsay: That was, like, probably the most toxic thing that has ever happened to me.

[00:47:27] And I don't know what I do. I wish, I wish I had left his ass at the bar. I wish I had. 

[00:47:33] Katie: You were this, you were this close. I was about, I was literally getting the keys, like. Yeah. Walking out the door and she called me off because. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, they're leaving. They're leaving it's fine

[00:47:44] because I think Tori was at my house, hanging out with us. Probably. I think it was the three of us like at my house. I was also at your house. I know, but that's what the thing is. The three of us were just gonna come scoop you right up. And then she was like, just kidding. Lindsay said they're leaving.

[00:47:56] So I was like, well, she's going home. She's gonna be safe there. Willard will...

[00:48:02] Willard and Andy would put the hurt on anybody who disrespect their daughters. Make no mistake. 

[00:48:06] Lindsay: Oh, man. But yeah, that was just such a weird night because he never he never had done anything like that. And he never did anything like it again. Yeah. But like, I was like, I think that's why I didn't leave because I was like, I know this isn't you. 

[00:48:21]Katie: You've never experienced that before.

[00:48:22]Lindsay: Yeah. Like, you're not acting like yourself, what's happening?

[00:48:27] Katie: Not to say that there would have been no reason, but like, that would not have been enough of a reason, I think, for you to leave, because that's so distinctly out of character for him. Whereas that was my entire relationship. Every time we went out, every time we were at a party with our friends, it could have been a house party, we could have been out at the bar. I can think of a hundred different -- which is so fucked up -- I can think of a hundred different times we would go out, and the night would end in a fight. Because of something he did and I know that I sound like that like there is part of me that knows that it sounds like I'm the crazy girlfriend, right?

[00:49:00] Just because I'm like he had he was the one that was the problem but… 

[00:49:03] Lindsay: But he was. No, and it also was like it like if that had happened right in the beginning of our relationship then I would have been like I'm not doing this but it was like we we had been together for eight months at least, I think, so that's why I was like, this is not, yeah, this is normal.

[00:49:22] Like what's going on? But fucking weird. That is not the reaction at all. No. And then later on, a few months later, he was also trying to defend the same friend for continuing to cheat on his now wife and trying to defend it to me as if, yeah, I was like, oh, so the thing that you were so distraught about that you acted like a dick to all of us now is fine?

[00:49:46] Got it. Sick. 

[00:49:49] Katie: That checks all the boxes. 

[00:49:51] Lindsay: Boy math. 

[00:49:52] Katie: Meep. 

Boy math. Men, do better. If your friends, if your buddies are being an asshole, call them out on their shit. And I mean, you can do it respectfully. But if you, Lindsay, are acting some type of way, I'm going to be like, girl, what the fuck is your problem?

[00:50:06] I'll probably do it in a nicer way than that, but… 

[00:50:09] Lindsay: Literally if I came to you a week before my wedding and was like, Hey, I just cheated on Brendan. Are you going to let me get married to him? 

[00:50:17] Katie: I would immediately be like, we need to have a seance or maybe an exorcism or something. I don't know.

[00:50:25] I needed something dramatic immediately because like we're doing something ridiculous, but get therapy immediately.

[00:50:32] Lindsay: Yeah. And also don't go through with a marriage if you're unsure if you want to. Saves everyone a lot of time cause those people got divorced, like within a year. 

[00:50:42] Katie: You asked me about what the weirdest first date I was ever on true.

[00:50:46] So we could go back to that for a second. But I need a moment to think to do. I don't feel like I did a lot of dating. So here's the thing is a lot of I dated probably between. The first traumatic relationship, we'll call him, I don't know what, and Kelvin. I dated probably… the number of people I've dated is relatively small, right?

[00:51:06] I think I've dated like seven or eight people total, but like, there's probably like a handful of people I've ever gone on a date with and most of the people I dated were people that I knew well. I was not going on, like, I wasn't swiping through Tinder and Bumble and all the things. 

[00:51:19] Lindsay: I've never actually gone on a date with someone who I didn't already know well.

[00:51:23] Katie: I went on one. Genuinely, I think one date with a random stranger. I think that I met on the internet and it wasn't even weird, but like... Even though I knew these people, they turned out to be weirdos. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. The weirdest first date I've ever been on, it wasn't really a weird first date, it was just, we went for coffee, and then, so he played hockey.

[00:51:46] My dad plays hockey. My dad knows everyone. My dad is friends. My dad has friends, right? Hockey friends, let's say. And one of my dad's hockey friends, who I am also friends with, knew this kid that I went on a date with, and I think we'll just say that the, my dad's friend was, like, “Yeah, cool. You had a first date?

[00:52:03] That's all you should have.” I didn't know anything about it. Like, we were never really gonna see each other again anyway. So, like, I didn't know at the time that, like, there was anything to be concerned about. But, like, my dad's hockey friend was just like, “one date's good.” I was like, excuse me? 

[00:52:17] That's enough.

[00:52:19]Lindsay: Cool. Good looking out, man. 

[00:52:22]Katie:  For real, like, that's my guy. Bro out. Every time I see him, it's like my, he's like, I don't know, it's like the best day of my life. Every time I see this man, I go to my dad's hockey games like once a year and I'm like, hey, my guy, what's up? Yeah, that's probably it. That's probably the weirdest.

[00:52:38] Lindsay: Yeah, I don't really have any because I've never really dated anyone who I didn't already know. But I mean, that time that I lived with someone and then broke up with them. What's the time living with someone and breaking up with them and then still having to live with them for like a little while? Because… 

[00:52:56] Katie: how long do you guys live together after you broke up? Cause he moved out pretty quickly.

[00:53:01] Lindsay: Well, he left and stayed at his dad's for a while. But then at some point, he still had to come back and get his stuff. 

[00:53:08] Katie: Well, yeah, I mean, I imagine he's not gone instantly 

[00:53:10]Lindsay:  It was a whole process.

[00:53:11] Katie: But yeah, yeah. I don't know if it was like a couple months, like till your lease was up, even though I know that there was a point where you were living by yourself because we were hanging out again. We started hanging out literally right after you guys broke up because I remember driving us. I had picked you up at your dad's house and I remember driving us to like Chili's or something and I was like, “Oh, how's so and so?”

[00:53:32] And you were like, we broke up. And I was like, It's not what I saw coming, but actually I'm not surprised. 

[00:53:38] Lindsay: No, we weren't living together for… we moved in together in July and by fall, I knew I didn't want to be in that relationship anymore. But it's tough to break up with someone that you live with.

[00:53:52] Yeah. We just moved in together. 

[00:53:55] Katie: Yeah. That's, that must be so awkward. 

[00:53:57] Lindsay: Yeah. And so I didn't actually break up with him until February. Or January. 

[00:54:03] Katie: Did you just sit him down and say, “you know what..” How did you do it? 

[00:54:06] Lindsay: I don't even remember the conversation, honestly, but probably 

[00:54:10] Katie: How many times have you… this is a segue.

[00:54:14] How many times have you broken up with people or have you been broken up with? I. Like, are you the, are you the dumper? Or are you the dumpee? I'm usually the dumper.

[00:54:24] Lindsay: Ooh, okay. I broke up with, obviously, that guy. Mm hmm. 

[00:54:29] Katie: Thefirst, the one before him, too?

[00:54:29] Lindsay: The one before him was Brendan. 

[00:54:33] Katie: You broke up with Brendan, though. Did you? Or was it mutual? 

[00:54:36] Lindsay: Kind of. We went on a break because of me, and then we got back together, and then he was like, yeah, this isn't the same anymore. 

[00:54:45] Katie: Oh, okay. Interesting. I didn't realize. 

[00:54:47]  Lindsay: Officially what he did, but it, I thought it was you. It was kind of both. It was like me first and then him.

[00:54:53] Katie: Okay. All right. We'll give, eh, partial credit. 

[00:54:55] Lindsay: But yeah, my, the guy I dated before Brendan, yes. You broke up with him. The only person who's broken up with me, the one person who broke up with me. Do you remember who my very first boyfriend was? Do you remember? 

I do! But do you remember how he broke up with me?

[00:55:12] Katie: No. 

[00:55:14] Lindsay: This is the most millennial 

[00:55:15] Katie: His house was where I had my first kiss! 

[00:55:18] Lindsay: We drove by his house the other day and I was like, oh, fuck. 

[00:55:22] Katie: I don't even think his parents live there anymore. 

[00:55:23] Lindsay: They don't. Do you remember how this boy broke up with me? 

[00:55:28] Katie: I just broke your speaker screaming about this. I need a minute to recollect.

[00:55:32] No, I don't remember.

[00:55:33] Lindsay: It's the most, like, millennial Did he text you? No. Better. 

[00:55:39] Katie: Better? Did he call you? Did he, like, I. M. you? Shut the fuck up. He I. M. 'd you? I think that's how I broke up with somebody in middle school. 

[00:55:48] Lindsay: Oh my god. Okay, but you were in middle school. 

[00:55:50] Katie: That's what I'm saying. I was, like, 12. I was approximately 13 at best.

[00:55:54] Lindsay: Yeah, no. He I. M.'d me to break up with me after school. We were just with each other and he waited till we got home. Because he didn't have the balls to break up with me in person. 

[00:56:02] Katie: You know what now that you say that I have this I don't know if I just made this up like it's a fever dream or something. But I have this distinct memory like you just unlocked in my brain that you I am to me to tell me [unnamed] broke up with me.

[00:56:17] I remember I can see it in ink on the fucking screen like in those stupid little aim chats. 

[00:56:24] Lindsay: What a time to be alive. The kids will never know. Oh my god. 

[00:56:28] Katie: That's so sad because AIM was the shit. Yeah, better than texting, honestly. So much better than, oh god. 

[00:56:36] Lindsay: All right, I think that's a good, a good place to wrap this up.

[00:56:40] Katie: Did we wrap up? 

[00:56:43] Lindsay: Oh man, what a journey. Well, we're gonna go see the Eras Tour movie. 

[00:56:48] Katie: On that note… 

[00:56:50] Lindsay: What should we talk about next? Maybe we'll put a box up on Spotify, you guys can let us know. 

[00:56:55] Katie:That would be a good question. 

[00:56:56] Lindsay: Or slide into our DMs, remind the people where they can find you. 

[00:57:00] Katie: I am on all social medias as Katie Meegs and if you're not sick of me yet, tell me what you want to hear me and Lindsay talk about.

[00:57:06] Lindsay: Yes. Please do. Alrighty, love you guys. 

[00:57:00] Bye! 

[00:57:06] Katie: Bye!